Corrected Subtitles?

[honeybunny]

We try to give you not only the fastest subtitles, but also the best ones, quality-wise.
Let us know what does a corrected subtitle mean for you. Try to be as detailed as possible.

This feedback will help us provide the best subtitles you ever watched a tv show episode with. Thanks,

[DrJackson]

[...]
Let us know what does a corrected subtitle mean for you.
[...]

To be yesterday . (Bad joke).

No misspelled words, grammatical rules to be respected, I do not know, it's hard to answer, if you notice anything, you should give an example, so people have something to guide after, it's kind a general question.
In addition at this thing, I think that suggestions must been given by someone with a bit of lexical training, we can only guess in the end ... will be just like That's good to be or that will be better because...what? My guess? I don't have such a good lexical training, I hope you understand what I want to say!

doc.

[honeybunny]

Ok, for me a corrected subtitle should respect the following:

- correct capitalization of words and sentences
* first letter in a sentence should be capitalized
* names of persons, cities, institutions should be capitalized
* acronyms should have capital letters for each initial or as it would be written whole (I.R.S. but PhD); initials followed by period or not; the following word, unless a proper substantive should be in low case
* low case after ";" and ":"

- no spelling mistakes (complete words and lines)

- no missing lines

- dialogue dashes when 2 people talk in the same line, even if the first is continued from the previous.

e.g.

1
00:00:05,512 --> 00:00:07,474
I don't know what I did to him,

2
00:00:07,594 --> 00:00:08,596
- but I feel I am losing him.
- No, you are not.

- music notes to mark lyrics

- max 43 character lines

[ilse]

- dialogue dashes when 2 people talk in the same line, even if the first is continued from the previous.

Most of the times dashes are missing and it's a problem for us to translate, because forces us to be watching continously the episode in order to detect when is a two people talk in the same line (not always that it's very clear only reading the dialog). By my side, sometimes when I detect that dashes are missing I make the correction in the english one, but sometimes as we're focused on the translation, we don't make the corrections. For the future, I will pay more attention to this matter, and take note of the lines that need dashes to include them and I'm going to ask my colleagues to do the same.

[honeybunny]

Thank you, ilse. It's just the correctors team do not cover all the subs so any contribution is appreciated.

[DrJackson]

- max 43 character lines

Here is a problem.
I found many subs having lines with more than 43 characters. I couldn't keep them at 43 because in just 2,5 sec (or less, according with video!!!) of displaying time I must show more that 100 characters :blink: .
I couldn't split that line (displaying time became too short for so many characters).
So...

doc.

[honeybunny]

Still it's better to have two separate lines... I usually split them with VSS.

[elderman]

Here is something specific, maybe it'll generate some thoughts.

This is the original script line as it appeared on US television.
113
00:04:36,189 --> 00:04:39,724
Thanks, Jerry. [14]char
I-I really appreciate that. [27]char

This is the 'corrected' script line
113
00:04:36,189 --> 00:04:39,724
Thanks, Jerry. I... I [21]char
really appreciate that. [23]char

A few Questions (though not all):
Is this a 43 character line situation?
which line is correct, or incorrect, if any?
Do both lines express the same thing?
When viewing, do both lines repesent the actors delivery?

[DrJackson]

Good point elderman!

Thanks, Jerry.
I... I really appreciate that.

I guess that is correct answer.

Now,

65
00:05:03,030 --> 00:05:05,098
Narrator: In a normal two bag setup,

66
00:05:05,099 --> 00:05:10,202
there's one diver buoy and one trailer buoy
to make locating and hauling the pots easier. (43/45 characters) (5.01 sec)

67
00:05:10,203 --> 00:05:14,539
Removing the diver and (!!! this is my comment, normally and should be on next line)
repositioning the trailer lower on the line (22/43 characters) (4.33 sec)

68
00:05:14,744 --> 00:05:18,711
will, in theory,
allow the trailer to ride just below the ice

69
00:05:19,526 --> 00:05:21,329
and not be dragged off by it.

Well, if you see all above just as some lines in a subtitle, is not a good subtitle.
But, when you watch sub and video, you realize that you can't have max. 43 characters in a line!
It will be something like kung fu movies, where actors speak chinese but we hear english


According with video , those lines must be something like:

66
00:05:05,099 --> 00:05:10,202
there's one...
diver buoy
and....
one trailer buoy

to make locating
and hauling... the pots easier.
[5.01 sec !]

00:05:10,203 --> 00:05:14,539
Removing the diver
and...

repositioning the trailer
lower on the line
[4.33 sec ! ]

So, what will gonna do?

doc.

[honeybunny]

Those are exceptions and you do as you feel it's best.

About the splitting lines...
I'll give you my "intervals". Remember there are no rules, only guidelines and personal touch.

If the line has less than 30 characters, then I'll keep it in one row, except the case when two persons talk, each only a few characters.

- Hi.
- Hi.

I am not going anywhere.

....................

If the line is longer than 30 I try to logically split it. I'd keep each sentence on a separate row, rather than combine them.

I didn't know.
I never thought about it like this.

I didn't know. I never
thought about this like that.

.................

If two persons talk and the reply of one of them is longer than 43 characters, I tend to combine them rather than having a short line and a very long one.

- I understand. - I knew you were
the only person who would not judge me.

- I understand.
- I knew you were the only person who would not judge me.

.............

I like 2 shorter rows rather than one 43 character line. But again, this is not something anyone can impose as either right or wrong.

[DrJackson]

I get it ! :blink:

[Arcinboldi]

A rule needing some clarification for corrected subtitles could be choosing whether to use the American or the Latin quotation style: the difference lies in putting commas and periods inside quotations marks, like:

(Line 1) "I am American," he said, "and I use this stupid ...
(Line 2) "extra-dumb...
(Line 3) moronic, ugly, quotation style!"

Well, you have probably already figured out that in my opinion the American rule is stupid and lacks of logic when compared to the Latin one (followed by British English too, btw):

(Line 1) "I am American", he said, "and I use this stupid...
(Line 2) extra-dumb...
(Line 3) moronic, ugly quotation style!"

As we have already chosen to replace the "--" with "...", I'd favor to use the Latin rule even for this specific matter.

Moreover, I think corrected subtitles should use italics for all the words and sentences in languages other than English, as this is the style adopted by books.

In addition, any sentence expressed in a language requiring a non-latin alphabet should be left (in the English subtitle) in its original form or replaced by (Speaking ___) but not transliterated 'cause transliterations are often really innacurate.

Let's say there's some Russian dude reading the beginnig of The Iliad:

????, ??????, ?????? ????????, ??????? ????,
???????, ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????:
?????? ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????????.


This can be probably translitterated for anglophone speakers into:

Gnev, boginja, vospoj Ahillesa, Peleeva syna,
Groznyj, kotoryj ahejanam tysjachi bedstvij sodelal:
Mnogie dushi moguchie slavnyh geroev nizrinul.

Now, what's the point in this? Russian people watching the show would understand it, with or without the translitteration; yet anyone unable to speak Russian has no need for the translitterated sentence, as he/she won't be able to pronounciate it anyways.

My two cents

Ciao!

[honeybunny]

I totally agree about the second part. Just leave it (Speaking Russian) in HI and delete it in non HI.

About the second part, I had a different opinion. Sometimes, when a quote is longer, you may lose the sense that it's not the person that speaks that's saying those words, so the " at the beginning of every line is like a reminder, rather than a punctuation rule.

[ilse]

I like 2 shorter rows rather than one 43 character line. But again, this is not something anyone can impose as either right or wrong.

I agree with all your post. We do the same in the spanish translations, and I guess that this is not only a question of "style", it's also question of convenience while reading the sub. It's easier to read two symmetrical lines of aprox. 20 characters each one, centered in the screen, than one of 43 characters.

[DrJackson]

[...]
this is not only a question of "style", it's also question of convenience while reading the sub.
It's easier to read two symmetrical lines of aprox. 20 characters each one, centered in the screen, than one of 43 characters.

Let's say I can agree with that.
But what happen with HI ?
For those people will apply same rules?
In that some few subtitles that I've made, I've tried to figure out how a HI people will understand what he read according with what he see, I hope you get my point.

doc.

[honeybunny]

Um, I don't understand your question. I mean for HI there are the HI notations. I don't think the length of the lines have any relevance.

[DrJackson]

Ok, seems I have tried to think closer to a kind of literary reading, I went too far.

doc.

[ilse]

Let's say I can agree with that.
But what happen with HI ?
For those people will apply same rules?
In that some few subtitles that I've made, I've tried to figure out how a HI people will understand what he read according with what he see, I hope you get my point.

doc.

Yes, I get your point, but I guess that you're focusing this starting from a wrong point of view when you say this:

It will be something like kung fu movies, where actors speak chinese but we hear english

HI people lives in a world completely made for and to people able to hear, so, sadly, they are the ones forced to make an extra effort to fit in a world that not always offer them all the help that they need.
In Spain if you want, you have the option of for example, watching the movies in the original language with HI subtitles in spanish. These subs provided by the channels are more or less the same than the subs for non HI people. The main difference is that while in the HI subs each person talking has a colour for his/her "lines", and the additional information, you know, grunting, knocking the door, etc., in the ones for non HI people the colour is always the same and obviously, there're not additional information about noises. I don't know if HI people think that these kind of subs fits their needs, but I guess they are used to read and watch people moving their lips at different rhythms, and also guess that they don't bother that, because the real important thing is to get the information, to know what is saying the person that appears in the screen moving the lips.

In an idylic way, the perfect sub for HI people, would be one that were showing each word in the screen at the same time that is been pronounced for the person who's talking, but this is only that, idylic. At the moment, HI people needs both, "style" and information, but I guess that more information than "style".

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say, It's not easy to me to express my thoughts in english trying to write correctly. In resume, I guess that we always must try to improve our style, but there are things that are beyond of our means, and the "rhythm" that HI people would need to reach the idylic situacion, is one of them.

Anyway, our points of view are all valid, but I would like to know the point of view of HI people, because that is real way of knowing if we are "walking on the good way".

BTW, I will appreciate very much if you point my mistakes, because it will help me very much to improve my english. I will do the same for you if you decide to learn spanish :)

[DrJackson]

[...]
BTW, I will appreciate very much if you point my mistakes, because it will help me very much to improve my english. I will do the same for you if you decide to learn spanish

I can help you only with Romanian language. Your English is far better than mine.

[...]
but I guess they are used to read and watch people moving their lips at different rhythms,
[...]
In an idylic way, the perfect sub for HI people, would be one that were showing each word in the screen at the same time that is been pronounced for the person who's talking[...]

Exactly that it was I think to.
A HI person will watch a subtitle line, but somehow, it is posible that action on screen to be something else.
Anyway, you're right, to fit those people needs will be like perfection itself.

doc.

[ilse]

Exactly that it was I think to.
A HI person will watch a subtitle line, but somehow, it is posible that action on screen to be something else.
Anyway, you're right, to fit those people needs will be like perfection itself.

doc.

Ok, now that we both know what thinks the other one, and seems that we agree on the same, let me ask you to do me a favour. Can you please, explain me what was your main post about? Or I'm missing something or I don't understand why if you realized yourself some time ago that to make HI subtitles perfectly fitted for HI people in the "idylic way" it's almost imposible because of the way we're doing them, you bring up this matter.
No offense intended, my point is that I'm a bit curious and given that you know perfectly how this works, I want to know if you had another idea and simply changed your mind, or your main intention was to open a new argument for "recreational purposes only". BTW, I like this kind of "brainstorming", but I found this one in particular a little "dead end". :P